Is It Time to Change Your Spiritual Director or Therapist?

EPISODE 122 | IS IT TIME TO CHANGE YOUR SPIRITUAL dIRECTOR OR THERAPIST?

As we grow and develop, we may come to a stage where we move past, or in a sense, we can outgrow, the limitation. So, when we reach that point, the fit is no longer there. And if we outstay this fit, what's going to happen is that, well, we're not going to be continuing to be very spiritually fruitful. We're not going to really continue to keep growing in our interior journey. 

[00:00:26] INTRODUCTION
Welcome to Becoming Me, your podcast companion and coach in your journey to a more integrated and authentic self. I am your host, Ann Yeong, and I'm here to help you grow in self-discovery and wholeness. If you long to live a more authentic and integrated life and would like to hear honest insights about the rewards and challenges of this journey, then take a deep breath, relax, and listen on to Becoming Me. 

[00:01:04] The Importance of Choosing the Right Spiritual Director or Counsellor

Hello and good morning. So, today I'm going to be talking about something very practical. I'm going to be talking about something that if you have been on the interior journey for some time, you probably will need to hear about. Okay, so, and that is how do you know when it is time to change your spiritual director or how do you know it's time to change your counsellor or therapist?

[00:01:38] Now, if you happen to be watching this and you currently don't yet have a spiritual director or a counsellor, I really, really want to encourage you to listen to a podcast episode of mine that I did. This was one of my earlier episodes - episode 30, titled "Counselling or Spiritual Direction, or both".

[00:02:00] So, in that episode, I explain what the benefits of spiritual direction is, what the benefits of counselling is, what kind of resources they are, how they are different from each other, and how they complement each other. And how really anyone who is serious about making progress in the interior journey of integration really should avail ourselves to actually both. 

[00:02:24] Okay, but maybe not both at the same time. We may start off with one or the other, but at some point, if we keep going, we will find that we really, really can benefit from the expertise of a good spiritual director and that of a good counsellor or therapist.

[00:02:40] Okay, So, let's assume that you already know this, and I know quite many of you who follow my account, who watch or listen to my content, already have a spiritual director, or a counsellor, or both, and that's, that's really great. I'm very encouraged to know that you have been investing, really investing in your interior journey, that you have really come to realize that you can't do this on your own.

[00:03:04] Now, but at the same time, what I've often come across in my own accompaniment of others, sometimes in the lives of my own clients, for example, my own coaching clients, is that they may have a spiritual director or a counsellor, sometimes even both, but what's happening is that they're no longer really benefiting from these relationships.

[00:03:29] They're no longer really growing from that spiritual direction relationship or that therapeutic relationship, and they are not aware. They're not aware that they aren't growing. So, in their mind, you know, they're trying their best. I've availed myself; I've found myself a spiritual director, and I've found myself a counsellor or a therapist.

[00:03:48] And, so they think, you know, like, okay, I'm doing what I need to do. But how would I know? Because I think I notice that some people don't realize that they're not really helping them. Okay, so, that the relationship may not be helping them. Even if at some point, maybe at the start, that relationship was helping them in their journey.

[00:04:09] Okay, so, this particular discussion today is not about how to choose or discern and choose a spiritual director or counsellor. That's covered in the podcast episode I mentioned earlier. Although I will welcome any questions if anyone does join and watch this while I'm giving this Live and have any questions about that. But let's suppose that you have, you already have, right, a spiritual director, you already have a therapist. 

[00:04:39] UNDERSTANDING THE NEED FOR CHANGE IN SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE
Now, before I go in and talk about three possible signs that may be time for you to change your SD - spiritual director, SD, or your therapist, let me give you two explanations as to why it is very likely that in your journey you're going to need more than one spiritual director or more than one counsellor or therapist accompanying you or guiding you in your journey.

[00:05:03] Okay, so, the first reason is - and I've talked about this a lot before - the first reason is that this entire interior journey of integration and of healing, it's a long journey. It covers a lot of ground and there are many different stages and many different seasons that we will go through in our journey, right?

[00:05:27] So, if we're actually making this inner journey, and we're not just people who think, you know, like, I just want to practice my faith and I'll be okay. If I begin to be aware that there's something more than just showing up and doing things, I want to develop this interior journey, then I need to have the right guide. But not only that, I'll need to have the right guide for the right stage, right?

[00:05:50] So, the first reason is, there are many stages in our journey. Just like, if you think about it, you know, a human person from birth to, let's say, if you live a long, full, long life, you go through so many different stages, right, just even biologically; infancy, early childhood, you know, childhood, adolescence, young adulthood, adulthood, midlife you know? And then old age.

[00:06:14] At every one of those stages, biologically, it is easy to understand because this is universal and we see this, right, that the food that we eat has to change. the kind of intellectual stimulation to help us develop intellectually, to help us, you know, develop emotionally, all these things they change at different stages of our journey, right?

[00:06:39] The same principle applies to our interior journey, to our spiritual development and our spiritual adventure or surgeon, right? The only thing is it's a lot harder to see the spiritual journey is a lot harder to see than being able to visibly see ourselves. Growing old, growing up and growing old, right?

[00:06:59] And the spiritual development, spiritual journey, is not that tagged to our biological age, right? So, that makes it a bit harder for us to see our spiritual journey. But the same principle applies. There are different developmental stages, different kinds of seasons, and what is appropriate and needed, the kind of work that needs to happen at a particular stage of our spiritual development. Especially when we talk about an integrated spiritual development can be very different from a previous stage that we're at. Okay, so that's the first reason, first kind of like reason to hold on to, right - the different stages.

[00:07:31] And secondly, when we think about our spiritual directors or therapists, no matter how skilled and how good an individual is, and they can have the skills, they can have the training, they can have gifts, and they, you know, they will have the specialization. But they're all unique and more importantly, they are limited because we human beings are limited, right? So, we're unique, we can be gifted and talented, but we're also limited.

[00:07:59] So, if you think about it, the spiritual director that you have right now. And it could be he or she could be somebody that's really a good fit for you right now and helping you grow where you are right now. That's because everything about this person, maybe their expertise, their training, and their gifts and their call coincides with what you need at this stage or this season of your journey, right?

[00:08:28] But if you continue to grow, and I so hope that you continue to grow, right? If we continue to grow, anything that's healthy, any organism that's healthy, normally what happens is it continues to grow. As we grow and develop, we may come to a stage where we move past, or in a sense we can outgrow, the limitation. And by limitation here I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but we move past the gift that our spiritual director or therapist has been given to give us, right? So, when we reach that point, our spiritual director or therapist do not cease to be good people, they do not cease to be talented, perhaps even anointed, and skilled at what they do, but the fit is no longer there.

[00:09:15] And if we outstay this fit, what's going to happen is that, well, we're not going to be continuing to be very spiritually fruitful. We're not going to really continue to keep growing in our interior journey. Now, what I often have encountered is that people lack the experience perhaps, to be able to be aware when they've reached that point where it's time to move on. It's time to move on from this particular spiritual direction relationship or this particular counselling therapeutic relationship.

[00:09:44] So, that's what I'm going to share with you in this session. Okay, there could be many different signs different kinds of things, but I'm going to talk about three pretty big ones that I think it's sufficient that if you hit any one of these three, and especially if you hit more than one of these three indications I'm going to be talking about, it's time that you really pray about and start looking for a new spiritual director or a new therapist, okay?

[00:10:11] SIGN#1: YOU'RE NO LONGER GROWING
So, let's start with the first sign. Okay, so, like I said, okay - so, the three signs. It's time to change spiritual director or therapist. Let's go to the first one. Okay, so, that's kind of implicit in what I already said earlier about what would happen if we outgrow our spiritual director or therapist and we don't change, you know, that SD or the therapist.

[00:10:34] Usually one of the indications, if you are already aware a good fit with a spiritual director or therapist, usually we know it's a good fit because we can feel that we're moving. Maybe we take a few sessions when we have a new, when we're trying, when we're trying out a new SD or a new therapist, we may try out a few sessions.

[00:10:52] Within a few sessions, we should be able to know, let's say two, at most three sessions, we should be able to one, feel that we are comfortable and safe with this person and two, begin to experience that this person who's guiding us helps us to kind of like open up. More space within ourselves, and we begin to have this sense that, oh, I feel like I can move forward, right?

[00:11:16] I didn't know I could move, and now there's the space that I can move forward in or move further inward in my journey. Whether that is in my relationship with God, if we're talking about spiritual direction, or in my relationship with myself, my awareness of myself, let's say in counselling or therapy.

[00:11:34] So, that's usually an indication of a good fit. My very first spiritual director, I was very blessed because I learned this from my first spiritual director; he told me that usually we stay with the same spiritual director for as long as it's a fruitful relationship, for as long as we find that we are continuing to grow.

[00:11:53] He said, but when either the director or the directee begins to sense that this relationship is no longer spiritually fruitful for the directee. It's time to discern. Right, and it's probably going to be time to move from that particular relationship. So, it says usually, you know we stay for as long as this is fruitful and when either one of us feel like it's not that helpful for you anymore, then it's time for you to look for a new spiritual director. And I found that tip really, really helpful because it, you know, it has been applied in my life and I've tested it and I found it to be true indeed.

[00:12:33] And that you actually can tell, you can have a sense when something that was really good before is kind of stalling, all right. But let me just say for most, for many of us, most of us - it's certainly the case for me because part of my experience as someone who wasn't really in touch with my emotions, who doesn't really trust my emotions, is that I often would second guess myself. Is it just me? Am I being too sensitive? Is it really time to move on, right? 

[00:13:03] I just want to say this gets easier, in a sense when we become more integrated, we trust our instincts a little more, right? But even when we begin to have that first sense that perhaps we're stalling, this relationship, you know, isn't really helping us to move forward anymore, I'd say that's the time to take it to prayer and to begin to actively discern whether or not it is indeed time to move on. So, for me, whenever I come to that point, when I begin to feel like, oh, I feel like we're plateauing. 

[00:13:32] And it's so interesting because, you know, like the sessions with this particular spiritual director or this therapist used to be so helpful, right? And then now, suddenly it feels like we're just talking about things that I already know, I've already learned, and there seems to be nothing new that this person can offer me, can help me to grow. I usually would begin actively discerning and maybe give it two or three more times. You know, let's say if you're seeing this spiritual director or therapist once a month, that would mean maybe another two or three months.

[00:14:05] To be more attentive. Does it continue? Alright, if it continues consistently like for the next two or three sessions that yeah, I think there's nothing new I don't feel like I'm moving forward anymore, but I can feel that there is still space for me to move. But it's just that this person isn't really able to bring me beyond where I am now that I would say is a good indication, one indication that perhaps it's time for you to look for a new spiritual director, right? Doesn't say anything about how good the spiritual director is. It's just that, like I said earlier, the fit has, you have outgrown that fit because maybe now you've reached a new phase of growth, a new stage of development, a different season, and there's something else that's needed. 

[00:14:48] There's an analogy I once read in a book about spiritual direction, I believe, that says, you know, there's the famous sculpture by Michelangelo, the David, of David, right? And he's saying that statue is that finished product. But that statue used to be part of a mountain, right? That the marble was part of a mountain and from hacking the stone from the mountain, that raw marble stone from the mountain, to transporting it, to eventually, you know, being with Michelangelo and all the tools that Michelangelo would have needed to use to sculpt David, down to the very, very fine, you know, parts about, let's say, his, you know, his pupil or the curls in his hair. 

[00:15:31] There would have been many different kinds of equipment and different kind of instruments that needed to be used from beginning to the finished product. And in this book about spiritual direction, he's saying that that's the same way that you can think about spiritual directors, the spiritual directors or spiritual guides in this sense. And I'll say the same for counsellors and therapists, people who come along and help us in our interior journey. They are all different kinds of instruments that fit when it's right at the developmental stage, the stage that we are in or the season that we're in. They do the good work that they are meant to do.

[00:16:06] And then in order for us to continue to move forward, we need to make the next fit with the right instrument for the right stage. Okay, so, that first clue, this first clue is that your interior journey has stalled under the guidance of your spiritual director or your, or your therapist.

[00:16:26] SIGN#2: THE RELATIONSHIP HAS CHANGED
The second sign is that perhaps the relationship has changed to something else. Okay, so what do I mean by this, that the relationship has changed to something else. Sometimes, we may find over time, you know, that there is some indication. Maybe the chemistry is really good or we kind of become like friends and there's always that question.

[00:16:53] Sometimes people actually feel like oh, I wish I could get to know this person outside of this, you know professional relationship. Now, this is where I think the boundaries are a lot clearer and more specific in the therapeutic relationship and the counselling relationship, like that's a strict no-no, right? I mean, there are clear professional boundaries there.

[00:17:11] But in the area of spiritual direction, I think this is not as clearly stated. There are often no clear expectations. And in my own life and in my observations of people, there seems to be a range and not everyone will probably agree with me about how strongly I feel about this. So, I'm going to say, I feel from my own experience, and especially for someone like me, who part of the symptoms of my own complex trauma, is that I have trouble with boundaries.

[00:17:39] I have trouble navigating and telling where boundaries are, especially early on in my journey. I think it's very important that for both spiritual director and for counselling therapist that there are clear, good and clear boundaries where I can feel safe to show up in this space. And we can have a warm, affectionate, even loving relationship within that context, within that professional context, right, in spiritual direction and in therapy.

[00:18:08] But it's very different if this then bleeds out into something else. Okay, so, again, I would say this is more clear cut when it comes to counselling and therapy. We all generally know that that needs to continue to be a professional relationship. You shouldn't move beyond that professional boundary, but for spiritual direction, sometimes it's a little less clear cut, right?

[00:18:29] So, what I have found to be helpful is that I find spiritual direction a lot more effective when I can also just show up as a directee. I know what to expect in this relationship and who this person is in their personal life has no bearing on this relationship. It has happened more than once that eventually after I've ended a spiritual direction relationship and I maybe get to know that person in a more, in a different context, I find that actually, maybe the chemistry personal chemistry may not quite be there.

[00:19:00] Or we end up being really good spiritual companions. But the nature of that kind of relationship is very different from that of a spiritual director and directee. And for me, at least, I think it is very important to honour that nature of, you know, the boundary of that kind of professional relationship.

[00:19:20] And remember that whether it's in a counselling relationship or even a spiritual director and directee relationship, it is not a relationship of equals. It isn't a relationship that is symmetrical Okay, it's not necessarily hierarchical, but there is an inherent asymmetry to that relationship. We come in a position of somewhat greater vulnerability to seek guidance and help from someone more experienced in some sense, right? And we open our lives up to this person and it's not meant to be that reciprocal. Alright, so, the sanctity, I want to say, and effectiveness of this relationship, to a great extent depends on us maintaining that boundary.

[00:20:04] So, if over time we find that the relationship is starting to change to something perhaps a little more personal, whether it's friendship, or in one of my cases it began to shift to a bit like being like a mentor, my spiritual director started treating me like a mentee and I think she, looking back, she was very tactful about it. But she had been hinting to me that in a sense that I don't need to come and see her so often, that perhaps I'm ready for something a little different, but she continued to advise me sometimes because of the nature of my work, I do accompany people as well.

[00:20:40] I often find that our sessions began to shift to more of like a mentoring sessions. So, that's when I also knew it was time to look for a new spiritual director, right. But I continue to be in relationship with that particular spiritual director. She is almost 80 now. She's very dear to me and I still share with her, you know, my content, my podcast episodes. She actually listens to them and she actually shares with me her own insights after listening to what I have to share and we continue to companion each other. It's just that it's not a spiritual director and directing relationship anymore, right?

[00:21:14] So, that's the second point of when the relationship has changed to something else may be an indication that it's time for you to look for a new spiritual director or a new counsellor. 

[00:21:29] SIGN#3: YOU NO LONGER FEEL SAFE
Okay, the third point, this third point is very important and I think it's probably one that more people are not really aware of and that is that. You no longer feel safe with your spiritual director or your therapist when you used to feel safe.

[00:21:50] Okay. So, this may not be in a sense, any fault of director or spiritual director or your therapist. You may wonder why is it then, let's say at a certain stage, I felt safe. And then at some point, I don't feel safe with this person anymore? It may be that this person hasn't changed. It's the same person, right? And in a sense, you are the same person as well. Why is it that what felt safe before no longer feels safe?

[00:22:17] Now, this can happen when we move into a new stage in our interior journey, okay? When we move deeper into our interior journey, that means we're going someplace even more vulnerable than before. That often means that our consciousness also begins to expand and we begin to be aware maybe of deeper things that are coming up.

[00:22:39] This is especially the case, and it's easier to understand when we think of trauma. If we realize that many of us don't realize that we actually have trauma in our lives, complex trauma in our lives, we may only be aware of the surface layer of the issues that we're dealing with.

[00:22:54] Oftentimes, people start counselling or therapy because of some crisis or something that's very difficult to deal with right now, like what's currently going on in their lives. But what they often don't realize until later on is that the crisis that they're having now or the issues they're having right now is tagged to or linked to deeper issues from their childhood.

[00:23:15] So, we're talking about deeper wounds things that are that are going on at a deeper level of vulnerability, right. And this is also the case when we talk about spiritual director because a lot of people start taking their spiritual lives more seriously and begin to seek spiritual direction with no sense or understanding that our spiritual lives and our relationship with God is also very much tied to our emotional life and the core of our identity. And when we are fragmented, and when we have trauma in our lives, all this will also begin to come to the surface as we journey deeper in our relationship with God. So, this is where I mentioned you can have very good spiritual directors, very good counsellors at, let's say, the earlier levels of development of the spiritual journey.

[00:24:06] So, if I want to use an analogy from education, I would say like, you know, you can have excellent, really gifted, let's say, kindergarten teachers or grade school teachers, and no one's going to say like, you know, that they are, in a sense, less good or less important than university professors. I mean, that's ridiculous, right? I mean educators at any level of the education system. Are important and you can have really good preschool teachers and as a great school teachers. 

[00:24:31] But when the students’ needs, when a child's needs outstrips that, they need somebody else, a different kind of teacher, somebody who teaches at say the high school level or eventually the university level college level, right? And in the spiritual direction journey or in the counselling journey, because it's not so clear, it's not like It's not like school the school system where we have grades and you can see the biological age of a child changing. And if they've been going to school you know, their educational needs developing and changing. 

[00:25:00] How it often shows up, because we can't see that clearly, how it often shows up is you find that there may be an instinct that now the things that are going on in your life. And as you share them, you feel like it doesn't quite land with your spiritual director anymore. It doesn't quite land with a counsellor anymore. Or they reply or they give you something to work on that after you try it out, you realize that no, that doesn't actually meet the need that I have. And so, naturally when we are in this stage, we won't feel that safe to be as open about what's going on in our inner lives anymore because you can intuit. Your intuition kind of like senses that it's not going to be heard properly. It's not going to be seen and received properly, that this person won't really doesn't really get me, right.

[00:25:51] So, sometimes, what happens - and this is especially the case for those of us who are, let's say people pleasers, who are afraid of offending people, upsetting people, hurting people - we may feel like we are afraid of hurting our spiritual director, or we are afraid of hurting our counsellor or therapist.

[00:26:07] We may not dare to bring up - okay, not even let's say, bring up that this is something that we're having an issue with. You could, if you feel safe enough. But to even, let's say, think of the option that maybe now you can discern whether or not to change a spiritual director. There's some people, I think I was saying quite a few people, who remain because they don't know how to leave, even a professional relationship like, you know, a therapeutic relationship or a counselling relationship.

[00:26:37] Which is also why I say this relationship is not a symmetrical one, really in this kind of a situation. One hopes that if the spiritual director or the counsellor is truly a good one and an experienced one, they should be able to sense and tell that the relationship has shifted and that the client, the directee or the client, is not as comfortable and not as open as before, right? And in that sense, the onus can be on the director or the counsellor or therapist to then initiate the conversation in a way that doesn't make the client feel rejected, hopefully - directee feel rejected, hopefully, but to help them understand, right, that perhaps now what you need is something else than I can provide.

[00:27:23] And maybe I can help make a referral, you know, for you or, you know, let you recommend you to somebody that I know. Or I think from based on what we've done on the journey that I've seen you make, that maybe is what you're ready for next or what you need next. So, this feeling of no longer being safe with our spiritual director or therapist, it's a very important feeling to listen to, okay?

[00:27:46] And I want to say this is; it's also because many counsellors and most spiritual directors are not trauma informed, okay? So, that means that they can be trained in certain modalities but they may not be aware of the impact that your earlier life and you know, all that, how that carries over into your spiritual life.

[00:28:12] Let's talk about spiritual director, right? So, I have seen this happen more than once when the spiritual director, what they have in their toolbox, so to speak, does not address a situation where religious trauma is starting to surface in the directee or where the directee actually is in a very unfree kind of relationship within their religious community, within their spiritual, you know, church community.

[00:28:39] And what they need is something else other than prayer, or the usual kind of prayer, or anything specifically religious. And when the spiritual director fails to see or recognize this, one, they may not even recommend the directee to see a counsellor or therapist, which is really important because this is not in the wheelhouse of a spiritual director, right?

[00:29:02] But if a spiritual director is trauma aware and trauma informed, other than referring their directee to also see a counsellor or therapist to tell them this is something that you need, you need another kind of expertise to support you in, a trauma aware or trauma informed spiritual director would know how to adapt and go around this area of spiritual religious trauma, for example. 

[00:29:25] And this is more common, as n experiences of religious or spiritual trauma is more common than we think. It's just that most of us, we don't know what it looks like, what it feels like. So, we don't recognize it when it comes up. And when our spiritual directors don't recognize it either because they may not, have not been trained to identify this, or in their own lives, they have not navigated that journey themselves, which is highly possible - they won't be able to pick it up. So, we won't be able to articulate this but it shows up in that relationship in spiritual direction as it just doesn't feel like a safe space for me anymore, right?

[00:29:57] Or I feel like the reality of where I am for example, if I feel like I need more distance from church, I need more distance from anything religious or I don't understand why certain things are triggering me when it didn't trigger me before. Like, just things are so different now. And now where I am, I feel stifled in this spiritual direction relationship. Alright, it may not have anything to bear about anything wrong with your director per se, or with you. It's just that once again, like I said where you are in your journey now requires someone else with a different set of tools that is able to meet the need that you have right now and is able to guide you in the work of this season in this stage of development that you are in.

[00:30:43] NAVIGATING THE TRANSITION: MOVING ON
So, those are the three kinds of signs that it may be time for you to change your spiritual director or therapist. Alright, the first one is you begin to notice and sense that you're plateauing, that you're not growing anymore. Right, that you're not being helped anymore, even though you have a sense that there's still more, but you just seem to be revisiting the same things and you know, it's not helping you anymore.

[00:31:06] Secondly, the relationship, the nature of the relationship with your spiritual director or therapist or counsellor feels like it's changing, right? Maybe you're taking a personal interest or mutual personal interest to become, it's becoming friendship or it's becoming something else. That's another indication that perhaps it's time for you to change your counselling therapist or spiritual director, especially if you do pursue that more personal dimension of a relationship with them.

[00:31:31] Three, you no longer feel safe as you used to, sharing openly about what you're encountering in your interior life with either your spiritual director or your counsellor. That's also an indication. There is a deep inner wisdom in our souls, okay, in our embodied souls, or in our bodies as well, that many of us who are survivors of complex trauma are not in touch with. So, this part is hard. Some of us may not even really realise we don't feel safe. We may be so used to not feeling safe in our families, like emotionally safe, let's say. So, I'm not just talking about physical safety, okay, but also emotional safety.

[00:32:13] We may be so used to not feeling safe in our families and even in our friendships and relationships, maybe even in church, that for the longest time we may not realize that we don't feel safe. And we've learned to navigate that, right. We've learned to navigate around not feeling safe because we've learned to navigate in spaces where we are not really fully accepted for who we are. We don't feel safe to show up as who we are. But as we keep making the interior journey, we begin to be more authentic or yearning to be authentic. You know, it comes to the surface more.

[00:32:46] And then, we begin to notice that, oh, I don't. feel safe. Maybe I've never been safe, but now I realize that I don't feel safe. So, this relationship with your spiritual director or a counsellor that may have begun at an earlier stage in your journey, that you didn't feel unsafe in, may now no longer feel safe if they are not in that place themselves to receive where you are. That's just part and parcel of making the interior journey. And this is also why so many of us get stuck without realizing.

[00:33:19] Because in the first place, many of us don't even avail ourselves to the help that spiritual direction and therapy provide. And then even if we do know and we do avail ourselves to this help, we may not have the experience to notice when we have outgrown this particular relationship and what we need is to change to someone else.

[00:33:40] Of course, It's never easy to find a good fit and, you know, kind of the right SD (spiritual director) or the right therapist. It's always a grace. It's always a grace when you find a good fit. And what I found helpful is when a relationship is not helpful anymore, sometimes, if it's not harmful and it's not that I don't feel safe.

[00:33:58] So, for example, of the three reasons, like three signs I gave, sometimes, I kind of feel like I'm plateauing. In the past, sometimes I may feel I've plateaued for a while, but it's still a good professional relationship, and I still feel safe. It's not that I don't feel safe with this person. I may feel like I can stay in this relationship a little longer, or I still see this spiritual director or counsellor for a little longer, so that I can continue to have someone to journey with me, to process, right, my thoughts and my feelings.

[00:34:25] But sometimes, I will have a sense, this is especially if I begin to feel less safe with this person, that even though I don't yet have another spiritual director waiting in the wings, for example, I kind of like start to leave this current relationship, right?

[00:34:41] And I don't think that's a right or wrong way of leaving a relationship, especially when oftentimes it's kind of like the whole thing is a process of discernment, right? So, often what happens with many people is that maybe you start seeing this person less frequently. And then eventually, maybe just kind of like drop off, right? So, I don't think there's a right or wrong way there. But what's important is that you honour the truth of what's emerging in your journey.

[00:35:12] Okay, so, that's what I have to share about this topic. If there are any questions, please feel free to park it in the question bubble or the comment. So, I hope that this session has been helpful. It's a very practical one. And this is, I think, going to be helpful, especially for those of you who not just at the start of your interior journey, but kind of like in the middle of it, right? You're already trying out different resources and this maybe can offer you something else that you hadn't thought of or that you haven't been aware of.

[00:35:45] So, I wish you well and continue to pray for each of your interior journeys. May we continue to trust that the Lord will provide what we need. and give us the grace to be able to discern when it's time for us to move on to a new spiritual director, a new counsellor, a therapist. Thank you! Bye.

[00:36:11] CONCLUSION
Thank you for listening to Becoming Me. The most important thing about making this journey is to keep taking steps in the right direction. No matter how small those steps might be, no matter where you might be in your life right now, it is always possible to begin. The world would be a poorer place without you becoming more fully alive.

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